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Author Topic: How to counter rogues  (Read 4861 times)

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Offline Calid

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How to counter rogues
« on: 22 August 2013, 01:23:44 »
How do I stop a rogue (my friend player) go out of control?

He just keeps rapidly expanding by capturing isolated buildings not really worrying about being perma-outlaw (he just keep sitting in his HQ training) simply collecting units armed with a knife and sabotaging all of my buildings with firebombs so my profits are nearly being eliminated by repairing costs. In about 7 turns from the very beginning he has critical mass of his henchmen (like 15) waiting for my char locked in my building so if I go outside - I die instantly.

I'd like to ask the ones who knows - what are the counter measures versus rogues at least to keep being on par with them?

Thank you.

Offline McCoy!

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #1 on: 22 August 2013, 01:34:06 »
Early game they are over powering. This is because their workers have the ability to attack. I would choose a small town to start the game. Run to townhall and stay in there. Before bothering to even get a wife get yourself into the Sheriff position. Then use the city guards like body guards :)

If he is sheriff too then that won't help you. All you need to do is ride it out. The guards will get tired of his illegal actions and his workers will be executed and he will be put in jail...

Not much else except to start as a rogue (perhaps mercenary) to balance early for protection and branch out to the classes you want using your wife and children :)

Offline GeorgiaBoy

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #2 on: 22 August 2013, 01:51:22 »
Do you believe that the Rogue needs balancing?

Offline DarkLiz

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #3 on: 22 August 2013, 07:02:40 »
I've mostly played PotES so far, but it sounds like Rogues are pretty much the same in Renaissance.

They're way overpowered compared to the other professions from what I've seen.

I've played as all the professions, and the game plays more like an economic sim with some RTS elements if you're not a Rogue, while playing as a Rogue turns the game into more of a RTS with some economic elements.

In my experience, playing a Rogue equals an easy game where you end up just steamrolling everything by capturing buildings.


How do you counter Rogues effectively? I'm going to venture to say you have to play the game like a RTS... like the rogue does. Hire goons, get multiple houses so you can have more goons, damage the Rogue's buildings and take them over. Be violent. Commit crimes. Murder the rogue as soon as you can.

You can't remain "Righteous" and counter a rogue effectively... because the law is slow and, well... totally useless! I find you end up having to take justice into your own hands.

Doing what McCoy said helps too, for sure. And if you can get immunity before beginning your campaign of violence against the rogue, great. Then you won't have to deal with being inconvenienced by the law later when someone finds out how much marauding and killing you did. And even if you lose one family member to the death penalty in the process, its a small cost for... well, winning the game (in a competitive head to head game especially). Just make sure the same character owns all the houses that you're getting your goons from (the owner of the house is responsible for the crimes of the goons attached to it).

But then, if you do all that your money is going to dwindle because of your lack of attention to the economic stuff, unlike the rogue, who profits from such actions. So its especially hard to do that early in the game.

So how would one balance the Rogue class? I guess maybe by making the law effective(?). If the penalties were actually economically debilitating (like being plundered over and over again can be) or otherwise scary it might make rogues less apt to ply their trade. But then, that would ruin the rogue profession, wouldn't it?

I'm actually not really sure that RTS and economic sim elements are totally compatible in the same game, as The Guild attempts to do. Innovative idea, but does it really work? Not well I'd say.

Perhaps ideally the rogue profession would be removed entirely and the rogue abilities/actions given to everyone... to use or not use as they see fit (depending on how much they want to risk the penalties of law). And the Thieves' Guild would then be like an underground 'Town Hall" setting that anyone can join if they want some support in making money through illegal actions... or something like that. I realize this is beyond the scope of modding however. And it changes the game so drastically it wouldn't really be The Guild 2 anymore.


Personally, I'd prefer a game like this to be just an economic sim. I'd trash the RTS stuff entirely if I could. For me it generally just detracts from the fun... unless I'm playing a rogue of course (where the game is all about RTS).


...just my take on it.

:)
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Offline McCoy!

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #4 on: 22 August 2013, 07:49:24 »
^^Rogues are only overpowering against human competitors....personally I do not exploit this while playing MP games...
Every once in awhile I may do something to remind someone I am still around but I do not ruin the game for everyone else (mostly let them do their own thing)

NPC AI are easy to manage...just talk with whoever you play with and setup some ground rules....early game attacking is retarded unless its a death match or something (someone wants to play but they need to reinstall so you are having a quick game while you wait...or aka "Deathmatch")

Rogues are rogues it is supposed to be overbalanced. They tend not to care about the law and get to where they are by exploiting this fact. It actually is as realistic as it possibly could be ;)
^^Rogues are overpowered just like they are in the real world...nothing needs to be changed (in legacy...vanilla could use a little more balancing)
« Last Edit: 22 August 2013, 07:52:21 by McCoy! »

Offline Calid

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #5 on: 22 August 2013, 22:28:16 »
[nooffence]
Rogues are rogues it is supposed to be overbalanced.

There is a point but I still find it arguable. In my opinion no playing class in any game may have an excuse to be overbalanced, that just ruins the point of the game itself. Like if so then what exactly stops me and anyone else from picking this class as with it I get advantage for nothing. McCoy, I read your posts not for a single year so far and this is completely clear for me that you know a lot about The Guild, much more than me or anyone else here so I would just be happy if you prove me wrong.

I know that the game is not a hardcore cybersport piece and the main point is just to go with the flow, like play your own game. But it would be hastily to forget that in the end no matter what we play exactly we play only to win and only to win. So to win I have to be either a rogue or be playing with opponent much weaker than me. None of this is pretty much fun for me. It's fairly that rogue should be financially ahead but there should be WORKING circumstances to get this advantage compensated with. Like really - I always thought that "outlaw" status has to be the thing one should be trying to avoid at any cost. On practice - having a damaged leg is much more troublesome than fighting against the law. That even doesn't properly fight back.

Okay, there is a choice like DarkLiz mentioned above. I just stop pouring beer, break bad and capture building myself followed by henchmen spamming. But this will be completely not The Guild 2. I don't want to play like this and moreover I don't want to be forced to play like this. If I wanted to play RTS, I'd just play Starcraft II. I want to play against a rogue knowing that I have a chance to win doing my business better than anyone else and simply being protected by the law and knowing that the neutral buildings isolated from a city are not just Who_Will_Be_The_First_One_To_Capture but being protected as well. And then it would be
Quote
as realistic as it possibly could be

Finally the game received a support from you. I'm extremely happy to see that there are works and research to finally get rid of OoS. I'm not worried about them actually because I know that eventually OoS-errors will be just the past. The thing I'm worried is what will be next, as you're completely satisfied with the current balance.

Once again it might be that I'm missing out something and if so - I will be very happy if you prove me wrong. But at the very this point I sadly find multiplayer potential is questionable.[/nooffence]
« Last Edit: 23 August 2013, 10:12:34 by Calid »

Offline McCoy!

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #6 on: 23 August 2013, 00:13:34 »
It's not just about balancing all the classes. It's about balancing every single profession. This is not as easy as it sounds and is extremely tedious.

This mod pack has REB mod which attempts to do this. And I can verify that huge changes have been made to reduce rogue income.


The new political offices work to balance the rogue class. King in particular punishes a rogue type player every turn. Assassinations work to balance the rogue class (kill ten times as many rogues without getting your hands dirty)

^I know for a fact late game churches in particular pump out huge cash if you set them up right.
Further more this game allows you to control 3 main character class's out of a possible 4. If you don't want to diversify then you are of course going to hurt your chances of winning...

This game is 100% strategic. If you place your buildings in the right spot, if you rise in office quickly, if you use all resources available to you, yes you can win the game

And lastly do I think someone who chooses to make pastries and cakes should have as much power as some running a cathedral or thieves guild? Hell no. You are doing it for fun because you enjoy it. You can move up in offices if you like but to balance those professions would be absurd.

The tavern owner has connections and gets a portion of money if an assassin is hired in their establishment. That is the top profession for patrons...everything else is just for fun. I'm mean how much power does a farmer have? How much money? They were little more then slaves back then.

We simply differ in opinions. You want unrealistic game balance and I feel like you have three classes to play and can make your choice as how you want to win.

Or play for fun and see how you do at the end. That's usually what I do. I don't care if I win or lose I just enjoy what I'm doing. Usually the highlight for me is a well timed hijacking or torture session lol

I play a sandbox style usually :)
« Last Edit: 23 August 2013, 00:15:45 by McCoy! »

Offline laser50

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Re: How to counter rogues
« Reply #7 on: 24 August 2013, 13:19:51 »
Early game, what seemed to help, is to build the largest cannon towers, I think they're called.. Whatever they are called, the towers.
They fire projectiles, so if they dare attack you, they'll get fired upon.
Or at least, I think that's how it goes.