Progress of (Game-)Time

[ever]

First of all I´ve got to say i´m completely new to Guild series. I don't know nothing about these (I´m about to buy my first Guild2 Reinnasance today)... but I know about some other "medieval" games focused in those years (1600-1700)

About the "how the time runs" question, I would suggest you to have a look at one game focused in that period: Mount and Blade. If you now mount and blade series ("Warband" and "With Fire and Sword" are the latest games of the series).

There you can see that game manages economy, battle, time and events in a proper way. It's scripted programmed. You could see that 1 day may last about 1 minute in game when you are travelling on the world map.
Economy is also time based, as it's recalculated when time reaches X days.
Weather, so seasons of the year (Winter, summer, ...) also affects the game, or it could, couse in winter trips are harder, and battles are also harder, while in rest of seasons it's at normal rate.

Having this game in account, you could get some good ideas for Kontor, such as:

A time system where times flows according to space: WHen you are travellling time could go faster, when you are at towns, travel could go slower.

A weather system affecting space, speed and attributes: weather is harder on open spaces, such as world map (woods, roads, traveling) which affects speed of travelling, and attributes to fighting. While weather also affects economy making winter season to demand some concrete items (wood, food) than others one.


About food and sleep themes, I found having food in inventory (automatic use) or being in need to eat is important in game. Sleeping could also be handled according to time. PLayer should rest once a day, being the "resting time" a fast time in game, as it usually (but not always) is a nothing happened time.

I hope you understood what I wanted to say.

Edit: Forgot to give u the url for Mount & Blade so you can see their time system: http://www.taleworlds.com/

[Jacqvern]

I'm not very fond of the time function of Guild 2.  It's awkward to have a day-night cycle for a year, etc.

I would prefer that a day is a day, not a year or 2, 3, 4 years or at least to be able to choose it. 
It would be more realistic.  To have for example: day by day, week by week, month by month, quarters, one year and 2 & 5 years choices.    With a speeding option too.  (I like Patrician III and Settlers 6, regarding their time fashions and seasons, affecting production, travelling, events etc.).  Also game turns should be longer just one day.

Another thing that bothers me somewhat in Guild 2, is the towns on a map.  Again, I'll refer Patrician III which has more realistic maps.

Additionally, an important aspect left out in Renaissance was Art.  Painters, sculptors, actors, playwriters, architects, etc, were very important in those times.  I made a related post in Jowood forums.

Castles, fortresses, palaces, were left out also, however they were important.  The estate in Renaissance is practically useless in Renaissance, since there are no rooms, no one can reside in them, etc.  They are decorative and just for fame.  Not fair for such buildings.

Each town, if completely different from another, should have a distinguished aspect.  Hamburg was built in a completely different way from London and/or Paris for example.  Different architecture.

In summary, I would like to see everything as close to reality as possible. 

[helldiver]

Really like the Mount & Blade suggestion above. But keep in mind that M&B only progresses so long as you're not paused (which is all the time except when moving or whilst camped).

They need a Summary day, or a payroll day but I think FH and team are going about it in a too complex fashion.

You don't need a Yearly tally. Do like The Sims 3 does, where it does Weekly or monthly events. In fact I suggest using the same time increment/scale as The Sims 3.

Without pausing:
Normal play: 1 second of Real time = 1 minute game time. (24 minutes per gameday @ normal play time without pausing)
Fast play: 1 second of Real time = 5 minutes game time.
Fast Forward: 1 second of Real time = 20 minutes game time.

Do not tally at the end of the year. Instead do like Transport Tycoon, Locomotion, Mount & Blade, or The Sims 3, and have a Weekly tally (every 7 days).

You don't have to call 7 days a week, but in game 7 days = 1 month if you want to move the time period quicker. So 7 days equals 1 Round (1 round is made up of 7 turns). 1 Month = 1 Season (change weather artwork) like in The Settlers 6. 4 Seasons equals 1 year (so 4 "months" to a year)

A week (or month what ever you want to call it) would take 2 hours 48 minutes at Normal Speed without pausing (player can fast play, fast forward etc to speed things up).

A year would take 11 hours and 12 minutes @ normal gamespeed (this is assuming you don't fast forward, hit fast play, etc).

In Locomotion (or Transport Tycoon Deluxe) I believe it was 2 minutes to a month (24 minutes to a year, 40+ hours to do the whole 120 years in TTDlx).

Now keep in mind that it would only take 3 seasons (using the above system, 9 hours 24 minutes to have a child) @ normal gameplay speed. Cut that time in half or by a third at faster speeds.

The game can auto-speed up at night while your characters are asleep. So cut most of those times in half.

When ever a new season passes (every 7 days) simply go "Fall comes in" or something like that. Then winter, spring, summer, etc. No need to use specific months unless you want to.

Now this may seem like a long time. But keep in mind several things:
--You can always speed the game up.
--You'll be busy doing many things. Crafting, setting up shops, interacting with other NPCs, doing quests, etc. So time will go by really fast depending on how much content there is.
--It takes time for your character to make things. The above system gives you enough time to set up trade networks, stock buildings, customize buildings, look at the pretty graphics, and so on. I hate when games rush me (Tropico 1 and 2 come to mind).

To conclude:
@ Normal game speed:
1 second of Real Time = 1 minute in-game time.
24 minutes Real Time = 1 in-game Day.
7 Game days = 1 game "season" (2 hours 45 minutes Real time).
4 Seasons = 1 game "year". (11 hours 12 minutes Real time).

Hopefully my math is right...

[Kinabalu]

All I am interested in is that there are different time periods which have according influence on the game (i.e. robbers and thieves are more active at night, because there are less guards patrolling, or during winter no crops can be planted etc.) As long as this is given, I do not care what the time cycle is.

[helldiver]

Just to remark on the Sims Medieval thing: My understanding of the way AI behavior works in The Sims 3 (and I'm assuming Medieval as well) is that whenever you're in a location it basically warps other sims there so that it seems like a lot is going on.  In other words the AI isn't simulated, it's just dynamically scripted.  The Guild, if I recall, is different in that AI behaviors are driven by actual goals that are similar to the players (e.g., you will see an AI dynasty member walking to a location b/c they actually need to be there).  I would like to see this continue because it's one of the great things about The Guild.  The focus, I think, should be on making really great AI so that the town really is alive, not just "fake alive" like in The Sims.

Actually that is incorrect. The Sims 3 was revolutionary in that all the sims were actually as you put it "alive". In the Sims 2 you only played one single family. To make things look alive sims would congregate at public locations when ever your camera was there. With the Sims 3 this all changed, since the entire neighborhood is like one giant "family".

In the sims 3 running AwesomeMod you can monitor the activity of all 50 to 100 sims in a community. Although there is code to have random sims venture to locations your camera is at, all sims (with the exception of service sims) actually have full lives. This is called Story-Progression.

Story-Progression can be turned on or off in the Options and for a while it was really bugged (random babies, strange things would happen with some families etc).

The Sims Medieval is a completely different animal in that it focuses on the active sims which are on the current quest. In TSM things are so different in terms of how gameplay works that I wouldn't even want to bring it into the discussion. However, the sims you have placed to run the other businesses continue to run those businesses. You can even monitor them and watch as they use the facilities, gather herbs, run their business, visit the king and so on. I have actually killed off a sim (I messed up their quest progression) while active on a different Sim in TSM and I noticed how not only did their business close but multiple sims were affected.

However, TSM has a completely different focus than The Sims 3. Whereby TSM is more about the single quest experience rather than a sandbox world.

Believe it or not, one of the major current problems in The Sims 3 is the AI. Hence why several of us that play it quite frequently end up having to run either Awesomemod or Overwatch simply to keep track of the other non-active sim families. Problems such as:
-Not turning off their TVs/Radios.
-Getting stuck at raves/parties.
-Getting lost.
-Spawning their vehicle multiple times until it bugs out.
-Getting stuck pathing.

Under normal play without monitoring mods or cleanup mods (like Overwatch) gameplay begins to slow down and your active family begins to do strange things; getting stuck in furniture, freezing, etc. Most players don't think to pan around the neighborhood looking for stuck or frozen sims. Hence why monitoring mods do nightly cleanup/repair. When Night Life came out (for TS3) it started a whole slew of bugs and problems. Particularly having to do with elevators and sims getting stuck in them. You of course are playing your family far away from the location of the problem and have no idea that whats causing your PC to stutter are the 30+ sims stuck in an elevator somewhere downtown.

So at least for The Sims 3 the AI is far from being "fake alive" as you put it 

[Fausto]

In Kontor, progress of time will be an important part too.

I´m interested in your opinion abot the game time progress.

- How fast should game time progress in relation to the real life time?

- Do you think that night and day circles or the seasons are important?

8yrs in game = 1 hour in real life (7.5 minutes per year)

Hi,
day and night circles is important for the atmosphere, it's not mandatory to the game.
Seasons can be important if you decide to set up a raw materials system related to the different seasons, and for the ambient too.
I'm sorry for my english, hope you can understand what I meaned. 

[McCoy!]

- Same 24hours equals one turn as Guild II
- Agree with more comprehensive end of turn reports/history
- Elapsed time per year ideas:
   *Very Slow: 1 turn = 1 month (3 turns of spring, 3 turns of summer, 3 turns of fall, 3 turns of winter, repeat) most realistic representation of the seasons
   *Slow: 1 turn = 3 months (1 turn of spring, 1 turn of summer, 1 turn of fall, 1 turn of winter, repeat)
   *Normal: 1 turn = 1 year (Seasons same as Slow)
   *Fast: 1 turn = 2 years (Seasons same as Slow)
   *Very Fast: 1 turn = 4 years (Seasons same as slow)

- Intelligent Random Weather (Spring and Fall more rainy and foggy, summer sometimes rain and lightning would be cool...destroy some fields or start a house fire..lol)

- Agree seasons should affect things (Farming animals in winter fine, but things that grow...nope, improper clothing triggers illnesses (create new ones like: Hypothermia and frostbite), the slow carts in the winter is cool)

- Agree night should affect things more...like guards vision (I would say that though )

- Totally agree with FH...Drink and eat if you want but I would prefer if those actions had some sort of alternate purpose (buy someone a drink and improve relations...ect) I hate sims games

- Don't like the different time system...How would that work in MP games? To me it would seem that the devs would have to make two separate time systems to accomodate single player and MP. There are more important issues for them to focus on, like making the seasons and weather impact the game

I have more idea's but none that relate to the thread topic

Edit: Just read that you want it to flow with no turns.
Personally I would like to keep the turn and make the game stop (in MP everyone would check continue next turn box)
This allows you to examine finances, reports, character info without having to worry if someone is gonna bomb your buildings...everything happens so fast in real-time that a break is nice to sort out your thoughts

But if you do want to keep it flowing then make the reports an easy to access button that is updated real-time...don't want some report shoved in my face if someones trying to murder me...lol

[casca]

in the guild 2 i think that 4 years is to much and 1 year to little. probably 2 years would be a good combo becouse you will have a little more time with your character then if its 4 years.
1 year you gets bored with your char and it takes ages for your children to grow up.

[Euly]

I would like to see the progression of the game slowed down quite a bit, to which it's not so turn-based and more of a simulation. Day and night sequences are imperative, but make them seamless, so there is no transition of a traditional turn, such as in The Guild 2 at midnight. This way, the game does not have a linear day, so night-time serves equally for anyone's activities. More things should happen during the sequences of the day depending on the health of the city/town, such as common-law crime at night (i.e. mayhem, arson, burglary, robbery). During the daylight hours, people should wake up and go about their day like they do in The Guild 2, but with less of an emphasis on racing to finish activities because of the time-line of game. This would give the player and NPCs more time to travel between places and accomplish more activities.

Even with the 1 year per day modified speed in the Guild 2, the game seems balanced in a more lifespan-per-character cycle, so if I play for more than an hour or so, my main character will likely be middle aged and elderly in a few hours, this is not something I want to see in Kontor. Every new-game should not be: start, run to town council building, apply for title,  build/buy business, run to court woman, run back to counsel building, apply for city council, run back to woman, rinse and repeat routine. If players want a challenge of a fast paced day, then options should exist to speed up the game by changing the schedules and deadlines of events in game.

As far as actual time lapse in game, I think something like 5 minutes real-time should equal 1 hour in game, every in-game day (24 hours) could last two hours of real time, giving the player 1 hour of day-light and an hour of night. That might be a bit excessive, but if the game is designed well to provide the player with things to do at night, such as planning, training, building, upgrades, or activities in-doors, etc, then there would be an equally immersive environment that allows the player to be strategic without pressure from time lapse. Each day could still represent any number of years passing because the player would not be as focused on the age of the character in respect to abilities, like having children, if that is going to be in the game.

[Robinhood1990]

Seasons are nice to have, but not necessary. I think Day and night cycles are far more important. I would advice KISS. Skip seasons until later (possible feature in an expansion).
I would do it like it's done in TG2, but increase the time a round takes. Like during the night, there's a very short time where you can actually do a burglary, and getting from your house to town hall can take over an hour. I also heard Court options were removed to reduce time.
Currently 1 RL second is 1 ingame minute. I would change it to 2 or 3 RL seconds for 1 ingame minute. To not make building a family tree to slow, I would set 2 years per round as default, but also allow 1 and 4 years per round. You should only be able to challenge a political office every 4th year (optionally every second turn), but elections for vacant seats can occur on every turn.
Increasing the time of a day, increases the possibilities to do more tasks per day, and you won't feel like you spend half your time in the town hall. However, increase the distance between towns, so that travelling to another town still is a long yourney (this would also allow the map to look more realistic).

[Jabberdau]

To conclude:
@ Normal game speed:
1 second of Real Time = 1 minute in-game time.
24 minutes Real Time = 1 in-game Day.
7 Game days = 1 game "season" (2 hours 45 minutes Real time).
4 Seasons = 1 game "year". (11 hours 12 minutes Real time).

Hopefully my math is right...

Here is some more math:

If you character starts at age 18 and dies at age 84, thats 66 gameyears. Using your system it would take 11 x 66 = 726 hours +
11 x 12 = 792 minutes - 13 hours and 12 minutes
total: 726 + 13  = 739 hours and 12 minutes to play ONE generation.

.............

Thats about 1 month REAL life time you have to sit in front of your PC.

Here is what I would do: Find out how many generations you would deem resonable to play through in one game. Find out how many years that is, roughly and divide it by the time you think one game should last and go from there.

If you start the game at age 20 get children around age 30 and dies around age 80 thats about 50 years between generations. 5 generations = 250 years.
Say you want one game to last about 100 hours.

250 years/ 100 hours = 1 hour real time is 2,5 years game time or 24 min real time is 1 year game time.
Not that far off from what you already have.

EDIT: Just after writing this and turning my PC of, I realised my calculations where wrong but I was on the right track. Its 30 years between generations not 50.
So if you start the game at 18, play for 5 generations, it will be 192 gameyears before the last generation dies of
 
Timeline
      0    12   42     72   102   132   162   192
1   18   30   60     90     x        x       x       x
2           0    30      60    90      x       x       x
3                   0      30    60     90      x       x
4                             0    30     60     90      x
5                                    0      30     60    90

192 years x 365 days x 24 hours x 60 min x 60 seconds is 6.054.912.000 seconds!
100 hours of playtime is 360.000 seconds which means...

1 sec of playtime is the two above divided = 16.820 seconds
                                                                = 280 min and 20 seconds
                                                                = 4 hours 40 min and 20 seconds

so about 1 sec = 5 hours

a slightly shorter timescale would be 1 sec = 4 hours which gives

1 sec = 4 hours
6 sec = 1 day
42 sec = 1 week
2 min 48 sec = 1 month
33 min 36 sec = 1 year

Anyway my conclusion is that if you want to run the game in real-time and just speed it up, you will have to be running the simulation at a speed that can calculate everything that happens in 1 day in 6 seconds in order to follow this scheme here.

[General Chaos]

Nicely done Jabber.  I think that is a good way to look at it.

I'll add that I think it's important when designing the time system to focus on giving the player enough to do so that s/he doesn't want nor need to speed up the clock.  I think it's fine to have a fast forward option but ideally a game shouldn't need it if the player is being entertained and occupied with tasks.

[Madkill]

I think one season per round would be a good idea allowing the player to cycle through Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. It'd allow a more appropriate environment which can allow four different variables for each season. (i.e. round)
Furthermore it'd allow some added tactics, such as stocking up on certain items before the end of autumn (Harvesting season) because you can't grow produce very well in frozen ground, this of course should mean that if a player wants to be a farmer then around the autumn time they can have a very big pay-day or they can keep their harvest to sell it off throughout Winter and hopefully make more money.

I think it works out better than having a game that relies on a real-time second-for-second mode, such modes are easily cheated. Example: Start game, set orders, save game, quit, set computer clock forward 10 hours, start game, load save, set new orders, save game, quit, repeat^

[Robinhood1990]

@jabberdau
It's important to consider use of speedup. Currently I think days are to short. If you have court and trial, that takes up a huge portion of a character's time. I would try to keep them relatively short, yet be kept every round (pherhaps some restrictions on election). Also, I would expand time per round. Pherhaps to a day. I don't believe though, that it's fair to say that you need to play double as much. You've got a little more time between certain events, which will most likely enable you to use more speedup where necessary.
So: Years per round can be calculated the way you say, but I think you should expect less increase in game time by increasing time oer round, because it allows more speedup.