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Offline FH

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Project: Trading routes
« on: 27 April 2011, 19:01:12 »
As we announced earlier we want to improve the implementation of automatic trade routes. The idea for this project was born by the user "Helldiver" in our old forum (link).

Helldiver's proposal included the following improvements:
Trade routes are still established via the apropriate button. First you choose a building to start at, then you have to choose if you want to load or unload wares from or into your cart. At last you choose the sort of items and the amount to transfer. If you load wares onto your cart you can only choose items the building produces, if you want to transfer wares from your cart into your building you can only choose items the building needs.
If you choose a warehouse, market or kontor there's no restriction on item types, you can choose any items to load or unload at those buildings.
Furthermore all vehicles should get a button to send them home, where "home" means the building where the cart has been bought.
At the building overview sheet you can now manage your trade routes by clicking on a new button beneith the cart causing a window to pop up where all current orders of the vehicle are listed.
Also the manufacturies should get some new features, for example the possibility to restock the sell stocks. You choose the desired amount of items to sell and the building tries to keep that amount of wares in the sell stock.
All mentioned changes will also affect ships.

This project will be started after we've finished the work on our next patch. Until then you can discuss the planned improvements here and post your ideas.

Offline helldiver

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #1 on: 29 April 2011, 11:09:50 »
Reposting the images from the other thread;











Vehicle Status
Waiting at <name of location>
--When a vehicle is at a building this is shown.

Idle
--When a vehicle is stopped in the middle of nowhere.

Travelling to <name of location>
--When a vehicle is travelling to a specified destination.

Travelling to target
--When a vehicle is travelling to a spot on the ground.

Under Attack!
--When a vehicle is either attacking or being attacked.

Double clicking on a vehicle icon should automatically cause the camera to zoom/pan over to the vehicle.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2011, 11:24:11 by helldiver »

Offline FH

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2011, 11:39:29 »
Hehe, thanks for adding them. I'm glad you found your way in here :)

Offline helldiver

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2011, 11:53:28 »
There is a minor issue with open sales buildings (Public House, Tavern, Shebeen, etc).

For example; the Shebeen is an open sales building that can sell any sort of liquor and food. It does not have a specified item it "produces". In reality it is a destination building. Meaning it sells items produced by other buildings and it does not have any intermediary or component products.

Method 1
In this case, destination buildings such as the Pub, Shebeen and so on should be treated like a storehouse. Meaning you should be able to set up a route to it delivering any product (it accepts any product/resource).

I think this alleviates the issue, but it might cause problems later on. For example; what if I want my tavern to sell something that it normally doesn’t produce? That means that the tavern must also be flagged as a destination building.

Then we must determine which buildings are destination buildings and flag them as such:
Patron: Public House, Tavern, Inn
Rogue: Pub, Shebeen, Hedge Tavern. Should other Rogue buildings also be destination buildings? Like the Vagabond Camp/Juggler’s Camp/Camp of Travelling Folks

Unfortunately neither the Scholar nor the Craftsman would have easy access to destination buildings so they’d have to either marry/child, export directly through storehouse or sell direct to the town store. Otherwise they would only be able to sell the items they produce at their specified buildings.

Method 2
In this case, all buildings are treated like destination buildings. That means that when setting up a route all buildings are treated like a storehouse. They can accept any resource or product as well as you can specify any product resource for the vehicle to pick up at the building.

The advantage is that it may be easier to program?
It gives you complete freedom as to what you want to send to a building. You can specify items that the building normally doesn’t produce. For example, it would allow you to send bread to a carpenter’s shop.

Unfortunately this may be confusing to new players. When a new player sets up a route he might not understand that he has to select the exact products he wishes to supply/collect from a building.

So what do you guys think? It would be really good to have a discussion about this before the folks at Runeforge start work on it.

[Edit]
I just went and checked Transport Tycoon Deluxe and Locomotion. In both games you could specify any cargo for the vehicle even if the building didn't produce/accept said cargo. The cargo would just pile up at the station. I don't think they had any problems from players about that. But in those games there was about 12 types of cargo compared to the 40 or more in The Guild 2.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2011, 12:04:18 by helldiver »

Offline FH

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2011, 12:02:11 »
Another problem with method 2 is that it'd be a bit more complicated to set up a trade route, especially if you want to have many routes. You'd have to click/scroll through all other items in order to find the one you want to transfer.

Method 1 would be a bit more effort to program, that's right, but that would be OK because in total it would be a very small part of the work that has to be done. Buildings like the pub could be implemented as "special" which means that we'd specify all items that can be loaded or unloaded from/to a "special building" separately (maybe in a dbt-file or elsewhere, but preferably not hardcoded so that ppl. can mod it).

Offline helldiver

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2011, 12:06:34 »
Ok good

I just wanted to bring that up since in one of my most recent games I'd been using the Pub to sell back-inventory and pretty much anything I wasn't able to export.

I'm so glad you guys are working on this game and look forward to more! :D

Offline bdkenney

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #6 on: 03 May 2011, 22:28:16 »
Maybe there is a solution to this already, but I don't know how to utilize it if there is one.  If not, then here is a thought closely linked to trading routes, though for a different reason.  I think one the most tedious tasks in the game, especially when you have 10 or more buildings, is to keep on manually resupplying raw materials for your businesses.  It would be nice if there were a feature that could make it so that when a building (let's say a hospital for example) has only X amount of goods left (let's say 20 fruit for example, though this feature can be used on all goods) then an assigned cart from the hospital will go to a designated location and pick up X amount of goods (let's say 60 fruit) and then unload it at the hospital.  I know that you can use automatic trading routes to have an automatic stream of goods, but there is no way to program a trading route to get the right amount of goods in the right amount of time before either you run out, or you end up with too much and there is no room left for both raw materials or finished goods. 
This would be especially useful if you used a storehouse as a central nexus for goods.  Your storehouse could be centrally located and gather just enough goods to supply your local businesses, and then carts from individual businesses could be programmed to get an appropriate amount of goods from the storehouse once they are beginning to run low.
All in all, this would allow a player to give more attention to ordering their family members around and conduct other business in the game. 

Offline helldiver

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #7 on: 04 May 2011, 12:31:04 »
To be honest, I haven't seen a successful network run for very long without the storehouse. It's absolutely critical.

I think with some of the fixes though, we should more or less achieve some form of automation. But you're right, this wouldn't solve the issue of over-stock or understock since you'd still have to check your bins. Employees being late to work, random events, could all mess up the network.

But I think the Transport Management Menu will help somewhat since you'll easily be able to stop a cart, check it's orders, etc.

I played a game called Business Tycoon, or maybe it was Enterprise Tycoon... Anyhow in that game you could automate the resource purchases. It never really worked too well since the AI was really bad at predicting overages or shortages, in the end I typically did the resource purchases manually.

Offline Robinhood1990

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #8 on: 16 August 2011, 02:15:37 »
Why do we need to set up trade routes? To satisfy buildings desires to aquire or get rid of specific resources.
Why not just enable us to set what those desires are, and then let trade carts automatically do the job for us.
A resource a building wants will have 4 stock levels. Critical, low, good, max. Carts will not stock up a building to over max limit. The 3 others are priority levels, and carts will first prioritize buildings with critical demand, then low, and good last. On critical and low you can set options to buy from market if resources are not available from another of your buildings. Options would be to decide for what price you would buy resources, and from which towns.
A building that produces a resource can put it up for export. A critical level where you typically want to get rid of it, no matter what (consumes to much inventory space). The others, are high, and low, where they may sell resource to market if price is good enough (and none of your buildings have low or critical priority demand on that resource). Last there's a minimum value to enable you to keep a specified minimum stock.
In the program there would be a list for every resource, keeping track of who imports, and who exports a particular resource, and an available cart will select the highest prioritized task. Wen a cart has selected a task, the resource will look (to other carts), like it's already delivered to prevent multiple carts doing the same task. You need to enable a cart for automatic trade, to do these things.

Offline SirC

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #9 on: 19 August 2011, 00:59:22 »
Why do we need to set up trade routes? To satisfy buildings desires to aquire or get rid of specific resources.
Why not just enable us to set what those desires are, and then let trade carts automatically do the job for us.
A resource a building wants will have 4 stock levels. Critical, low, good, max. Carts will not stock up a building to over max limit. The 3 others are priority levels, and carts will first prioritize buildings with critical demand, then low, and good last. On critical and low you can set options to buy from market if resources are not available from another of your buildings. Options would be to decide for what price you would buy resources, and from which towns.
A building that produces a resource can put it up for export. A critical level where you typically want to get rid of it, no matter what (consumes to much inventory space). The others, are high, and low, where they may sell resource to market if price is good enough (and none of your buildings have low or critical priority demand on that resource). Last there's a minimum value to enable you to keep a specified minimum stock.
In the program there would be a list for every resource, keeping track of who imports, and who exports a particular resource, and an available cart will select the highest prioritized task. Wen a cart has selected a task, the resource will look (to other carts), like it's already delivered to prevent multiple carts doing the same task. You need to enable a cart for automatic trade, to do these things.

I like this idea

Offline Nommy

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #10 on: 17 February 2012, 08:56:01 »
It would be wonderful if there was a flexible system to set up a list of orders for a cart to repeat. I found the current trade routes setup to be all but usless, unfortunatly.

The suggestion just above sounds good for a transport AI which would take a lot of time I expect and regardless it would still be useful to be able to queue up orders.

As you probably know, the link in the 1st post is down, but I read the other stuff and I've got some suggestions (some are already mentioned):

1. Don't limit what goods can be picked up or delivered based on building type.
This annoying restriction prevents you using the house for storage, or setting up a route where wood is dropped off at a mine for another cart to carry the rest of the way etc. I would suggest having an 'Other...' button or somethinig when selecting the type of goods, so that you're able to load/unload any good, anywhere, in any amount.

2. Allow setting a 'maximum building stock' limit for unload orders.
To prevent overfilling buildings.

3. Similarly allow setting 'minimum building stock' limit for load orders.
So you can choose to leave a certian amount behind when picking stuff up.

4. Skip the 'select load/unload' step for goods that a building uses if possible.
E.g You click 'Trade Route' button, then click the 1st building (carpenter) it shows a form like this:
Quote
Select new action to perform at 'The Plank' carpenter shop:
[Unload Pine Wood]
[Unload Oak Wood]
[Unload Charcole]
[Load Torch]
[Load Wood Pin]
**buttons for all other produced goods (regardless of if they are in stock or not)**
-------------------
[Unload Other Goods...]
[Load Other Goods...]
-----------------------
[Cancel and select different building]
[Cancel/Quit]
This way you only have to make one selection (unload pine->...), rather than two (unload->pine->...) which would be easier and faster I think. Even if you had to use a [More...] button and put stuff on a 2nd page it would be no worse than having to make 2 selections each time, and often better.

[Unload Other Goods...] button could display form(s) to allow selecting any good, like you can for a wearhouse in the screenshots.
[Cancel and select different building] button might be handy if you change your mind.

5. Create new orders with defaults and allow modifying them.
Probably easier to explain with examples, so...
E.g. You click [Unload Pine Wood] on the form above and you'd get this:
Quote
Order: Unload All Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[Set Unload Amount...]
[Set Building Stock Limit...]
[Load/Unload other goods at this building...]
[Select another building to go to...]
[Confirm and issue orders to cart/ship]
[Cancel / Quit]
So it's written plainly exactly what it will do at the top, and there's a good chance you can send the cart or select the next building without having to change anything for this order. Let's say you want to change the amount though:

You'd press [Set Unload Amount...] and you'd see:
Quote
Set Amount
Order: Unload All Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[All]
[ +1]
[ +5]
[+10]
[+20]
[+40]
[+80]
[Ok]
You press [+10] changing amount from All to 10:
Quote
Set Amount
Order: Unload 10 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[All]
[ +1]
[ +5]
[+10]
[+20]
[+40]
[+80]
[Ok]
You press [+5] changing amount from 10 to 15:
Quote
Set Amount
Order: Unload 15 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[All]
[ +1]
[ +5]
[+10]
[+20]
[+40]
[+80]
[Ok]

So you're able to enter any amount and won't be frustrated when the number you want is not one of the pre-set values offered.

When you press [Ok] it goes back to the previous form with updated order description:
Quote
Order: Unload 15 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[Set Unload Amount...]
[Set Building Stock Limit...]
[Load/Unload other goods at this building...]
[Select another building to go to...]
[Confirm and issue orders to cart/ship]
[Cancel / Quit]
To prevent overfilling the building you'd press [Set Building Stock Limit...] and get:
Quote
Set Maximum Building Stock Limit
Order: Unload 15 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[Unlimited]
[ +1]
[ +5]
[+10]
[+20]
[+40]
[+80]
[Ok]
You press [+40] and the description would change to something like this:
Quote
Set Maximum Building Stock Limit
Order: Unload up to 15, filling up to 40 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[Unlimited]
[ +1]
[ +5]
[+10]
[+20]
[+40]
[+80]
[Ok]
This would prevent the cart from filling the building with more than 40 Pine Wood. Again you're not limited to preset values, so are able set up a route to stock your house with 3 stealth cloaks, if you want, etc.
You press [Ok] and see:
Quote
Order: Unload up to 15, filling up to 40 Pine Wood at 'The Plank' carpenter shop.
[Set Unload Amount...]
[Set Building Stock Limit...]
[Load/Unload other goods at this building...]
[Select another building to go to...]
[Confirm and issue orders to cart/ship]
[Vehicle Options...]
[Cancel / Quit]

So, if you change your mind you can still change the amounts. Also I would expect that this same form/code/setup could potentially be used to modify existing vehicles orders. You'd just need a way to tell it what order you wanted to change, I suppose. It might also be handy to have [Change to Load Order] and [Change Good...] buttons perhaps.

6. Set Vehicle Options such as Repeat Orders, Clear Orders When Done, Stop if attacked, etc
I reckon it would be useful for the [Vehicle Options...] button above to show a form where you can set options not related to any individual order. Often there are several jobs I'd like a cart to do then return, which would be simple if we could select to clear rather than repeat the orders when it's done. Also, there are times when I know a cart will likely be robbed and I just want it to continue to sell what it can regardless. The default options could be to repeat the orders, like a trade route. This is the kind of thing I had in mind:
Quote
Vehicle Options for horsecart from xxxxx
Repeat Orders: Yes
Clear Orders When Done: No
Continue if attacked: Yes
[Toggle Repeat Orders]
[Toggle Clear Orders When Done]
[Toggle Continue if Attacked]
[Ok]

7. Load / Unload All Goods
So you can tell a cart 'go here and pick up everything'. Perhaps this idea may be more work than it's worth, but it could be handy to be able to set up a route to move everything from A to B.

8. Add, Edit, Remove and possibly Move orders in the orders list.
This would be nice to be able to do, so I thought I'd add it. What would be ideal would be buttons on the Vehicle Orders form I saw in the screenshots.


So, hopefully this project is still alive, because one of the biggest improvement which could be made to this game would be to be able to automate some of the simpler jobs the carts do I think. My class choices have basically narrowed down to rogue and scholar purely because I can't stand the micro incurred by the others. I don't know how many of those suggestions are possible. All I hope :)

Offline bdkenney

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #11 on: 14 March 2012, 01:27:44 »
Why do we need to set up trade routes? To satisfy buildings desires to aquire or get rid of specific resources.
Why not just enable us to set what those desires are, and then let trade carts automatically do the job for us.
A resource a building wants will have 4 stock levels. Critical, low, good, max. Carts will not stock up a building to over max limit. The 3 others are priority levels, and carts will first prioritize buildings with critical demand, then low, and good last. On critical and low you can set options to buy from market if resources are not available from another of your buildings. Options would be to decide for what price you would buy resources, and from which towns.
A building that produces a resource can put it up for export. A critical level where you typically want to get rid of it, no matter what (consumes to much inventory space). The others, are high, and low, where they may sell resource to market if price is good enough (and none of your buildings have low or critical priority demand on that resource). Last there's a minimum value to enable you to keep a specified minimum stock.
In the program there would be a list for every resource, keeping track of who imports, and who exports a particular resource, and an available cart will select the highest prioritized task. Wen a cart has selected a task, the resource will look (to other carts), like it's already delivered to prevent multiple carts doing the same task. You need to enable a cart for automatic trade, to do these things.


I really like this idea, and it is really something that I hope they apply in this game.  After having read all the posts in this thread, including the post I am quoting and the one above this submitted by Nommy, I have a few suggestions to this issue.  Nommy's method is probably the most effective, but it looks very time consuming to set up.  Robinhood1990's idea is probably the best and most simplistic that I have seen so far, but it has one major issue that I can forsee hapening, namely, if a cart tries to deliver for a building on the other side of the map it will make it so that it will take a long time for the building to get the needed goods, tie up the cart in the process, and is more likely to get robbed because it has to travel so far.  However, I would add these thoughts and suggestions to it, and please note that my suggestions are solely on the resource gathering issue, not selling.   Here is my suggestion to the issue that is something between the two ideas.  (I apologize for being a little wordy, but I wanted to make clear examples of how my idea would work, and the process itself can be done very easily)
   As a preface, buildings need to have the ability to set a threshold as Robinhood 1990 suggested of "Max, Good, Low, and Critical levels" for each individual item you want in that building.  After this is done you can move on to this suggestion.  Have in the menu for carts next to the automatic trade button that already exists a button for "Auto Resupply" (Perhaps for the illustration, have bars of metal instead of a money pouch {like the illustration used for auto trade routes} on top of a cart).  After clicking the "Auto Resupply" button, a message will be displayed saying "Click on building to gather materials from."  After you have clicked on the desired building a menu will come up saying "Chose item" and a list of buttons will be displayed showing the items currently available at the selected building, as well as a button that says "Other".  Chose a button, and if it is not the "Other" button, then a message will be displayed saying "Click on building to send materials to."  After this is done a message will come up saying "Do you wish to send "(name of material chosen)" to any other buildings?"  If you click "Yes", then the message of "Click on building to send materials to." will be displayed again, and then you click on any other building you want this cart for this selected item to deliver to.  After you click on the desired building, the message "Do you wish to send "(name of material chosen)" to any other buildings?" will come up again.  If you want to send that material to any other building, repeat the process, but if not, chose "No".  Then the message  "Do you wish for this cart to resupply any other materials?" will come up, You can chose yes, and repeat the entire process, or chose no, and the cart will begin its "Auto Resupply" route.  In an "Auto Resupply" route No Quantities are Chosen, instead the cart will automatically pick up the number of goods needed to reach the maximum allotment set by the building, and will continue to do so after it makes its initial delivery until otherwise ordered.  If you are "Auto Resupplying" multiple items, or multiple buildings, with one cart, then the cart will determine which goods to deliver, and where to deliver, based on the "Max, Good, Low, and Critical" levels.  Carts will resupply materials that are at or below "Critical" level first, then materials at or below the "Low" level, then items at or below the "Good" level, while never going over the "Max" level.  Going back a little, if you chose the "Other" button while choosing an item to gather, then a list will come up showing all the items in the game, and you can choose one.  But it should be noted that if that building never produces, or receives that item, then the cart will consequently never be able to gather and send it to a new location. 
   
Now that I have said all this let me give an example of how this works.  You have a mine that currently has iron stored in it, and you have a Armor Forge, and  a Bank, that needs, amongst other items, Iron and Silver to produce goods.  Currently, your Armor Forge and Bank have their storage threshold of Iron and Silver set to a Maximum of 80.  Your mine has two Horse Carts which can each hold 60 items.  You click on one of those Horse Carts and its menu of options come up.  You click the "Auto Resupply" button, then the message "Click on building to gather materials from." comes up.  I click on my mine and then the menu will come up saying "Chose item".  Since the mine currently has iron and nothing else in it there will be a button for "Iron" and "Other".  I click on the "Iron" button, and then a message will come up saying  "Click on building to send materials to."  I then click on my Armor Forge which has 80 set for the "Max" limit for iron.  Then the message "Do you wish to send "Iron" to any other buildings?" will come up.  I will in this example chose "Yes", and then click on my Bank, to which the message "Do you wish to send "Iron" to any other buildings?", at which point I will chose "No".  Now a message comes up saying "Do you wish for this cart to resupply any other materials?" at which I will chose "Yes".  Then the list comes up and I  chose the "Other" button for an option and chose "Silver" since I know the mine will in the future produce silver.  Then the message "Click on building to send materials to." will come up, and I chose my Armor Forge, and then I will chose "Yes" when asked "Do you wish to send "Silver" to any other buildings?".  Then I will chose my Bank, the message will come up again to which I will say "No", to which the message "Do you wish for this cart to resupply any other materials?" will come up and I will say "No".  Then my one cart from the Mine will continually resupply those two building with those two resources until otherwise commanded. 
  From the programing aspect, there is the question "What do you do when you are resupplying multiple buildings or multiple items with one cart, and their is a tie regarding the threshold, which building or item gets supplied first?" As to which building gets supplied first when there are multiple buildings or items being supplied and multiple buildings are at the same level in their thresholds, I think the simplest solution in case of multiple buildings or items being at the same level in their threshold (for example you just started the route and two buildings have 0 goods) is to have it programmed so that the first building selected in the "Auto Resupply" route, and the first item chosen, gets supplied first in the case of a tie for thresholds.

   Now let's change the scenario a little.  Once again you have amongst other things a Mine that currently has iron stored in it, and you have a Armor Forge, and Bank, that needs, amongst other items, iron and silver to produce goods.  I now also have a land based Storehouse building.  My mine has two Horse Carts which can each hold 60 items.  You click on one of those Horse Carts and its menu of options come up.  You click the "Auto Resupply" button, then the message "Click on building to gather materials from." comes up.  I click on my mine and then the menu will come up saying "Chose item".  Since the mine currently has iron and nothing else in it there will be a button for "Iron" and "Other".  I click on the "Iron" button, and then a message will come up saying  "Click on building to send materials to."  I then click on my land based Storehouse which has 60 set for the "Max" limit for iron and sliver.  Then the message "Do you wish to send "Iron" to any other buildings?" to which I will chose "No".  Then the message "Do you wish for this cart to resupply any other materials?" will come up.  I will in this example chose "Yes", and then chose the "Other" button for an option and chose "Silver" since I know the mine will in the future produce silver.  Then I click on the Storehouse as the building of destination and the message "Do you wish for this cart to resupply any other materials?" to which I will say "No".  Then the message "Do you wish to send "Silver" to any other buildings?" will come up, and I will chose "No".  Now I go to my Armor Forge and Bank and chose a cart tied to their respective building and repeat the "Auto Resupply" feature to gather Iron and Silver from the Storehouse.  Storehouses will be particularly useful when you have a lot of businesses and a lot of raw materials that are needed.  You can have carts from businesses that gather raw materials deposit into a storehouse, then the individual businesses can all assign a cart to gather from the storehouse, allowing a quick and continual supply of goods.

On a separate but related note, I would urge the developers to look into the Forum titled "Storehouse Suggestions" and consider reintroducing a water based Storehouse and increasing the Storehouse maximum storage to at least 100 items per slot.

Thank you for your time and effort to make this a better game.
« Last Edit: 23 March 2012, 02:08:49 by bdkenney »

Offline drutland

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Re: Project: Trading routes
« Reply #12 on: 31 May 2013, 05:55:00 »
Hey just wondering if anything has been developed yet on what has been discussed?  The game is ruined for me in this regard.  Spend almost all of my time sourcing materials instead of managing my family.

 

quarterly