Few questions regarding the gameplay

[bad karma]

1. Will you be able to free roam in Kontor? Or rather it will be like Gangsters:Organized Crime thing where a boss is sitting in his office (kontor) 24/7 and gives out orders? Personally I would love to see free roam feature in.

2. Will you physically control your family members/workers like in TG2 or will it be about 'interaction' with them? IMO it would be much more fun to interact with your dynasty members and all sort of associates including workers (chatting with them, giving out orders etc.) rather than physically controlling them. It never made sence to me if I could call my henchemen back from their current task when they are on another side of the map. Actually devs could add pigeons so we could be able to sent messages to other places if nessesary Still better than simply controlling your guys througout the whole map. Also, why not make each character unique, with its own character traits, intelligence etc. so that your family member may not always obey you or even be rude with you. Or your workers may be good at something and at the same time bad or stupid at something. For example, a henchman with low Stealth and Sabotage skills would less likely blow up a building than a character with hight Intelligence/Sabotage. Plus amateur thug can even blow himself up while setting up a bomb

[FH]

I think that answer will address both questions:
We want to make the game more realistic and so there's one concept where you don't have a direct influence on the specific and visualized actiones people have at all.
That means that you control your dynasty and your business from menus and the characters will do what you told them - as soon as they have the time and the time is right. If you, for example, hire a thug to kill someone, he can't just run to him and kill him in the middle of town (like in Guild 2).

With this concept it could take a whole day until the game decides that the time is right (in this case: it's propably night) and the victim gets killed in some dark alley.
Not only would this add a lot more to the game's athmosphere (you just can't give someone a cake when he's working) but it would also decrease the change of bugs occuring, because the character's daily life is just influenced by their actions, but not entirely controlled.
I'd really like to hear your oppinions regarding that concept, but I think it would be really cool, because the world would be populated by characters doing something in a more realistic way.

We didn't yet decide about traits, but we definitely think about it.

[bad karma]

Thx for quick answer FH.

I like your concept overall, but I think that it lacks the sence of 'flexibility'. I am not aware of how you are going to implement it, but what you described sounds like 50/50 chanse on luck. What I mean is that if the game decides whenever to do a task and how to do it then it probably lacks player actions. If a player could not control the plan of let's say assasination and the 'plan' itself is limited by just picking a right action in a menu, then it's a bit boring IMO. I think that a player should be able to:

1. either organize assasination himself - plan on when to kill somebody, where to kill somebody and even how to kill somebody lol (throwing somebody of a bridge could mean an accident, while striking somebody with a dagger is 100 % murder).

2. give order to do it to another character (like in the mafia hierarchy) so that he would plan it and then give out oders to thugs (who obviously have little info on who are they working for, for example.)

Also, regarding the 2nd part. In TG2 evidences are randomply picked up by the gamee and added to your book of evidence, but most of the time I can't even remember if I have seen somebody doing those crimes. In Kontor, to make it more realistic, it would be awesome to have more detailed system of evidence. For example, authorities could be able to question a caught thug about who asked him to commit murder etc. In this situation player can kill a thug so that they will never find out

[FH]

I like your concept overall, but I think that it lacks the sence of 'flexibility'. I am not aware of how you are going to implement it, but what you described sounds like 50/50 chanse on luck. What I mean is that if the game decides whenever to do a task and how to do it then it probably lacks player actions. If a player could not control the plan of let's say assasination and the 'plan' itself is limited by just picking a right action in a menu, then it's a bit boring IMO. I think that a player should be able to:

Sorry, my answer was not very clear:
Of course every ordered action happens (although it may fail). Maybe it's not visualized because there's not enough time to visualize it, then it happens in background (the player wouldn't notice because it's impossible to observe the whole game, so he may miss some visualizations of actions anyway).

1. either organize assasination himself - plan on when to kill somebody, where to kill somebody and even how to kill somebody lol (throwing somebody of a bridge could mean an accident, while striking somebody with a dagger is 100 % murder).

How about: It depends on how much you pay the thug and on his skills how he tries to fullfill his contract?

Also, regarding the 2nd part. In TG2 evidences are randomply picked up by the gamee and added to your book of evidence, but most of the time I can't even remember if I have seen somebody doing those crimes. In Kontor, to make it more realistic, it would be awesome to have more detailed system of evidence. For example, authorities could be able to question a caught thug about who asked him to commit murder etc. In this situation player can kill a thug so that they will never find out

Evidences in TG2 are not random, one of your characters has to be near a crime to notice it.
There are some concepts about gossip-talk. People who witness a crime can either call the police (they will decide what they believe) or maybe he can blackmail the criminal.

[bad karma]

I like the idea of not viewing the whole map like in TG2. Seriously, sounds great. So will it be free roaming game? Will you be able to control you personal character?

The idea of the ammount of money paid for the work done influences the quality of the work sounds ok, but doesn't it make those thugs not care about thier personal lives? I mean if I pay him less money, then the work would be done worse, means higher risk of getting caught and/or killed. In TG2 thugs and them like are like flies. You can send them to do anything and they just die one by one. Something I would not want to see in Kontor. An instinct of self-preservation would be great.

[FH]

I like the idea of not viewing the whole map like in TG2. Seriously, sounds great. So will it be free roaming game? Will you be able to control you personal character?

If we take the mentioned concept, then this won't be possible since your character has to do the stuff you told him to do. Maybe you can send him somewhere, but it wouldn't be possible to send him around like in Guild 2 or with wasd.

The idea of the ammount of money paid for the work done influences the quality of the work sounds ok, but doesn't it make those thugs not care about thier personal lives? I mean if I pay him less money, then the work would be done worse, means higher risk of getting caught and/or killed. In TG2 thugs and them like are like flies. You can send them to do anything and they just die one by one. Something I would not want to see in Kontor. An instinct of self-preservation would be great.

Of course the thugs try to not get caught regardless the money you pay. But a floating corpse in the river will be less suspicious than a corpse with a dagger in it's back.

[bad karma]

Got it. Thx for your answers FH. Hope it turns out fun. Current concept sounds fun, but who knows how things will change in time

I would want to see what other people think on this too.

[bad karma]

Btw, about the corpses. So they won't decade (fall underground) like in TG2? If so, I really like your plans guys With that concept I am thinking about the Detectives, who could make various researches on the environment, including corpses to find out who did the crime etc.

[FH]

Haha, don't take everything I say so serious ^^ I just wanted to say that we're aiming for a game where decisions and moves have consequences, like being caught because your thug wasn't smart enough to dump his victim into the river. That's not about visuals, but about game mechanics. If we manage to get floating corpses on the river we will implement them, but don't be disappointed when there are no floating corpses

[bad karma]

Haha, don't take everything I say so serious ^^ I just wanted to say that we're aiming for a game where decisions and moves have consequences, like being caught because your thug wasn't smart enough to dump his victim into the river. That's not about visuals, but about game mechanics. If we manage to get floating corpses on the river we will implement them, but don't be disappointed when there are no floating corpses

LOL, I won't be disappointed. I am not that bloodthirsty  I was just thinking you are going to do everything more realistic, so I thought about corpses lol.

I was just recalling the old games, and a lot of those were very bloody (Doom/Heretic, Moonstone etc.) and a lot of oldschool fans think those games were real, although I think they were a bit too violent. Anyway, I don't wish Kontor to be rated R, I just wish it will be fun hehe.

[Sainty]

Reading through the questions and answers, it seems to me like this will become andother Europe 1400 online, like that one by Gameforce. I'm sure you've guys played it. What will be the difference between Europa 1400 online, and Kantor - game wise?

[FH]

Reading through the questions and answers, it seems to me like this will become andother Europe 1400 online, like that one by Gameforce. I'm sure you've guys played it. What will be the difference between Europa 1400 online, and Kantor - game wise?

Our game is standalone with 3D graphics and a lot of stuff going on while Europe 1400 is about buying diamonds to be a serious threat for your enemies.

Seriously, I played Europe 1400 and it's just another browsergame with some nice Guild 2 renderings as background. Kontor is no browsergame so it would be hard to even try to make it similar.

[Sir Rogers]

Our game is standalone with 3D graphics and a lot of stuff going on while Europe 1400 is about buying diamonds to be a serious threat for your enemies.

Seriously, I played Europe 1400 and it's just another browsergame with some nice Guild 2 renderings as background. Kontor is no browsergame so it would be hard to even try to make it similar.

I couldn't agree more. I have been following TG2 and Cultures II (which is another game that was produced by JoWood) and I have really loved both games for their innovative concepts and the fun I have playing them. However there was no sequel to the Cultures II game, until I found their sequel, the online version. Browser game, well like all browser games, it's interesting the first few hours, but aftwards it just becomes this boring routine: log in, do x y z, remember to login again before lunch and after dinner, and then rinse repeat tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that so that eventually I can outfarm all the other farmers in this game. Sounds like fun right?

A bit more on-topic though, I'm personally a bit worried about this priority queue. For example right now the player has full control, which is nice, I really enjoy that. For example some ennemy goes into politics just a few hours before the vote, and you need him taken away by your NPC guards, or murdered by your employees. And if it becomes a game where you have zero direct influence, it will all feel a bit woozy, and you'll get the feeling (oh ok, I need this now, but I can only order it, I guess it won't complete in time anyway ... great this sucks)

Politics was one example, what about trading, market prices. If you order to sell 20 units at a price of 50, and the order gets executed 3 hours later when the price is down to 40, you're not going to be all too happy either. Yes you could create exceptions for those situations and make it a hybrid game where economical actions (trading, workers in your buildings) are executed instantly and all orders that influence third parties (other players, neutral npcs, etc..) are actually delays to account for this whole murder in the dark, bribe at a bar, etc.. situational events.

Also I'm pretty sure that the chance of bugs occuring will actually be quite a lot higher, not lower. Right now the game operates on a very simple logic, all actions are executed based on simple script logic. Now if you are going to let the AI do the decision making, you get logistical  deadlocks, priorities not being recognized properly (which can be very nasty) and a lot of other related AI bugs that come with decision making, and things that it possibly can't account for. Well I mean the Settlers programmers have had 7 chances so far to get it exactly right, I don't even want to know how many years they've been working all together on the games, but they still get the AI deadlocks even in the very latest release.

So on a final note, having thought a little about it, I can see this work. As the Settlers series, Cultures II, and other games use priority based logic mechanisms with the AI doing the execution when the time is right, and you just give the orders. However those games are a little bit different in that there is no invididual control in these games, you rule an empire, not a family. Nevertheless, with the right balance and implementation it could be quite nice.


Regards,
Sir Rogers

[FH]

A bit more on-topic though, I'm personally a bit worried about this priority queue. For example right now the player has full control, which is nice, I really enjoy that. For example some ennemy goes into politics just a few hours before the vote, and you need him taken away by your NPC guards, or murdered by your employees. And if it becomes a game where you have zero direct influence, it will all feel a bit woozy, and you'll get the feeling (oh ok, I need this now, but I can only order it, I guess it won't complete in time anyway ... great this sucks)

Nono, there's no (random) delay in the actual action, but the visualization may be some time later.
A few examples:
- You hire thiefs to break into a house. You will receive a message about their success/failure most likely at night, because that's when thiefs work. But the visualization is not at the same time. It's also somewhere at night, but it may be a bit later or even earlier.
- You hire someone to deliver something to finish an order. The order will be delivered immedeately and you'll get the message that the order is finished a few moments later.
But you may (or may not) see the cart later that day.

The idea is that the visual elements in the city represent the life in the city and the actions taken. When there are many deliveries you'll see a lot of carts, but to avoid traffic jams the game decides when to visualize these deliveries. I mean, there are so many carts, how would you know if one of them is yours? Same goes for thiefs, bandits and other characters.

Sorry for the confusion :/

[bad karma]

What about improvisation? Let's say I wan't to remove somebody during the day time, while there's festival going on the streets (btw, what about carnivals, festivals?). Will I be able to manage the assasination myself (picking up the right time, the method, location etc.)?

One word about the thieves and other outlaws. You know, you just can't command these type of people to go pickpocketing, house robbing or waylaying unless you are their leader or associated with their commander (leadership does not mean having a thieves guild, but being a leader - having enough juice to make them do what you ask for). I mean outlaws are free people, I just can't imagine anybody telling thieves to stay on the streets and pickpocket and give it all to him afterwards IMO a player should gain respect to be able to interact with this type of citizens. There are loads of ways to do it though. Usually starting out with making money yourself then hiring your own crew and eventually pull the strings (Godfather). But I doubt you can just say them to go robbing when they don't even know you. Of course you can always hire an assasin, because he works for money but anything else is like crime family you know...

Also, one more question about visualization. If I can only see the place and surroundings of where I sent my character to, does that mean that the world itself will be limited by only these places (market place, office, some random buildings etc.) or will we enjoy the full world with all the stuff (forest, flowers, fields etc.)?