Few questions regarding the gameplay

[Sir Rogers]

A bit more on-topic though, I'm personally a bit worried about this priority queue. For example right now the player has full control, which is nice, I really enjoy that. For example some ennemy goes into politics just a few hours before the vote, and you need him taken away by your NPC guards, or murdered by your employees. And if it becomes a game where you have zero direct influence, it will all feel a bit woozy, and you'll get the feeling (oh ok, I need this now, but I can only order it, I guess it won't complete in time anyway ... great this sucks)

Nono, there's no (random) delay in the actual action, but the visualization may be some time later.
A few examples:
- You hire thiefs to break into a house. You will receive a message about their success/failure most likely at night, because that's when thiefs work. But the visualization is not at the same time. It's also somewhere at night, but it may be a bit later or even earlier.
- You hire someone to deliver something to finish an order. The order will be delivered immedeately and you'll get the message that the order is finished a few moments later.
But you may (or may not) see the cart later that day.

The idea is that the visual elements in the city represent the life in the city and the actions taken. When there are many deliveries you'll see a lot of carts, but to avoid traffic jams the game decides when to visualize these deliveries. I mean, there are so many carts, how would you know if one of them is yours? Same goes for thiefs, bandits and other characters.

Sorry for the confusion :/

Okay, well in that case the game mechanics are fine, what I'm worried about now is that you create a barrier between the player and the family that they've emotionally invested in. The charm is that you get to create your own family, manage a dynasty that takes over the realm. Part of that is the ability to directly influence the game in real time, you get to chase down the other gender to court and eventually marry, it gets really stale if you just click "Make compliments" and then you get some textbox that says "+13 affection from X", you could even show the video sequence here, but it wouldn't feel the same, unless you somehow make some magic happen here, and I wouldn't know how at this stage.

My second concern is of a technical/realism nature. If you keep the game mechanics to execute immediately and display afterwards, you are technical creating two game states, one for the scipting side that keeps everything in place and one for the visual side, unfortunately those do overlap and I can see some issues here already. One would be linked to murder, I like that a lot for some reason, I don't know it just influences the game so much, that's probably why. If you execute an assassination on person X a few totally unreal scenarios can be produced.

Let's assume our Mr.X is one of your political enemies and you decide to have him murdered an hour before the next election. So at 15:00 you give the order, execution successful. Great, but he still walks the streets, no problem. Now the meeting happens, he actually went inside the meeting building, and I'm already like ... right. Luckily your script side knows that this guy was murdered, so he wont actually appear in the visual display of the elections. Now elections are over? What happens? The visual gamestate had that guy go to elections, but he didnt appear in them. It cannot just make him magically vanish because in the queued actions there is a planned successful murder for this Mr.X, and you can't murder people that don't exist anymore. Also if you want to keep the visual side semi-correct you will have to exclude people that vanished this way from any UI display that includes game mechanics, but they will still be wandering the streets? Which is a little weird. This is just one of the examples, showing how consequences of actions lead to problematic situations, if you do decide to make some magic cleanup, all following queued actions have to be analyzed and any of them containing that person have to be altered and deleted. If you don't then the person's queued events will have to be cleaned when they die, but there can be always new one's readded, so to prevent that you'd actually have the people under states, with one state being dead_but_present? and in that state they cannot intiate any actions or be the target of any action, they'll just exist until Death comes and takes them away.

So yeah it's possible, but that design choice brings with it a lot of complications if you want to do it properly and stick to it. I'm a Systems Architect by nature, so I always look at the bigger picture and try to foresee all kinds of different scenarios and problematics. Well it's simple, you're trying to combine RTS with a great atmosphere simulation game, and at some stage the logistics of the RTS part cross ways with the utopian principles of the simulations, and if you can resolve those clashes properly so that it's nice, the game flows and doesn't feel awkward then you'll have a great concept.

One word about the thieves and other outlaws. You know, you just can't command these type of people to go pickpocketing, house robbing or waylaying unless you are their leader or associated with their commander (leadership does not mean having a thieves guild, but being a leader - having enough juice to make them do what you ask for). I mean outlaws are free people, I just can't imagine anybody telling thieves to stay on the streets and pickpocket and give it all to him afterwards IMO a player should gain respect to be able to interact with this type of citizens. There are loads of ways to do it though. Usually starting out with making money yourself then hiring your own crew and eventually pull the strings (Godfather). But I doubt you can just say them to go robbing when they don't even know you. Of course you can always hire an assasin, because he works for money but anything else is like crime family you know...

I got an opinion on that too, now at this stage I have to say that I do not have any personal experience within the mafia, everything written below is made up of experiences in a different environment with a similar setup. We all know the environment, they go by many different names in different countries and run by different people, but it's always the same: a corporation. Organized grime is nothing but an organisation, and large-scale organisations need to operate on certain principles to survive. The first one is that the Godfather doesn't know those people and he doesn't need their respect, he's managing them, or rather managing the people that manager them. Just like the CEO of a company doens't need to be friends with every employee and know them all personally, the executives responsibility and jobs in the company differ from those of other employees. The same goes for the mafia, well in the mafia's case it's probably more like you do this and that Johnny, or we'll put a bullet through your head, you're replacable. So the guys at the bottom need to work hard to climb up the ladder and gain respect from the people above. Having to work for their respect would completely opposite to anything we've seen so far in human history. In Japan, traditionally, the eldest person in the room gets promoted, and they move up desks depending on seniority.


Regards,
Sir Rogers

[bad karma]

Well yes, but you need some core weight before you can start you own family, right? You can't just sit at your office, call yourself a godfather and hope that somebody will go risk their lives just to make you rich. Some sort of work should be done, I think. Of course, when you are already running an organization then you don't need anybody respect. Actually it's a big question though. The life of crime is ruled by juice and money. If you're the boss and somebody doesn't treat you properly (tricks you, for example) then you have to do something about this person or you will slowly but surely lose your authority, which will probably mean the end of yours.

With everything being said, I suggest adding some sort of reputation system in the game. It can be different for different playstyles. Not simple good/bad scale like in TG2, which I think does nothing except calls you a walking nigtmare sometimes, but a more realistic and complicated system. This system could limit a player to certain actions or on the contrary give him more opportunities.

For example, if you choose to be an outlaw (not by class, but by the gamestyle, btw) then you will lose your reputation if you accuse somebody in the court, for example. Or witness against somebody. But you will gain rep by doing sucessfull criminal acts or helping other criminals. I know, dull example, but just an idea.

Or if you are trying to be righteous then there are other actions which would increase/reduce your reputation. But I want (hope you guys too) the game to be more sandbox-ish, which means no classes and/or profession restrictions. A player just plays what he wants. He can be anybody the game allows and he is not restricted by his class, means he can build any buildings, wear different suits etc. Class restictions were never fun to me. With that being said, we can have a player who plays two roles. Let's say he's a good position in the secret thieves guild (in other thread it was said that there will be some underground organizations around) but he's always a well-known politician and everybody thinks he's righteous etc.

It's not about turning Kontor into Mafia III or another Gangsters: Organized Crime, but crimes are important part of the economic/politic simulation like TG2 and making everything more realistic would be more fun cause in TG2 90 % of every action (courtship takes 5 button clicks, which is funny) is somehow unrealistic and/or trivial.

[FH]

What about improvisation? Let's say I wan't to remove somebody during the day time, while there's festival going on the streets (btw, what about carnivals, festivals?). Will I be able to manage the assasination myself (picking up the right time, the method, location etc.)?

What I said is still just a concept, but I can imagine to have certain events that trigger an assasination at daytime too.

One word about the thieves and other outlaws. You know, you just can't command these type of people to go pickpocketing, house robbing or waylaying unless you are their leader or associated with their commander (leadership does not mean having a thieves guild, but being a leader - having enough juice to make them do what you ask for). I mean outlaws are free people, I just can't imagine anybody telling thieves to stay on the streets and pickpocket and give it all to him afterwards IMO a player should gain respect to be able to interact with this type of citizens. There are loads of ways to do it though. Usually starting out with making money yourself then hiring your own crew and eventually pull the strings (Godfather). But I doubt you can just say them to go robbing when they don't even know you. Of course you can always hire an assasin, because he works for money but anything else is like crime family you know...

Sounds good, maybe respect will be some important part of Kontor anyway.

Also, one more question about visualization. If I can only see the place and surroundings of where I sent my character to, does that mean that the world itself will be limited by only these places (market place, office, some random buildings etc.) or will we enjoy the full world with all the stuff (forest, flowers, fields etc.)?

You'll be able to enjoy the full city including outskirts and other surroundings

[Sainty]

Reading through the questions and answers, it seems to me like this will become andother Europe 1400 online, like that one by Gameforce. I'm sure you've guys played it. What will be the difference between Europa 1400 online, and Kantor - game wise?

Our game is standalone with 3D graphics and a lot of stuff going on while Europe 1400 is about buying diamonds to be a serious threat for your enemies.

Seriously, I played Europe 1400 and it's just another browsergame with some nice Guild 2 renderings as background. Kontor is no browsergame so it would be hard to even try to make it similar.

Exactly. And Europa 1400 is fun for like 2 weeks or so since there is no real personality to it. And from what I can image based on what I read, Kontor will be just like Europa 1400, but stand alone with 3d graphics and more orders to click. The touch with your sims/dynasty/gang will be lost, no?

I wont be able to abort a mission of murder course I see a guard suddenly appear, I wont be able to choose another route to another city with my carts to avoid a robbery, and I wont be able to just lurk outside the city and wait for someone random to come so I can murder him like Dexter in the famous Tv-show to gain some expirience. All I will be able to do is to click menus, just like in Europa 1400 and without the personal touch to the orders.

Or have I missunderstood?

I might sound like a pessimist before I even seen the game, but I'm just very eager and excited for Kontor and course of that, I already started to imagine how I will play it. 

[FH]

Exactly. And Europa 1400 is fun for like 2 weeks or so since there is no real personality to it. And from what I can image based on what I read, Kontor will be just like Europa 1400, but stand alone with 3d graphics and more orders to click. The touch with your sims/dynasty/gang will be lost, no?

lol, that's nonsense. First of all: what I said in this thread is just a concept. Also, if that would mean that Kontor will be played like a browsergame, then also games like Patrician would be like browsergames

I wont be able to abort a mission of murder course I see a guard suddenly appear, I wont be able to choose another route to another city with my carts to avoid a robbery, and I wont be able to just lurk outside the city and wait for someone random to come so I can murder him like Dexter in the famous Tv-show to gain some expirience. All I will be able to do is to click menus, just like in Europa 1400 and without the personal touch to the orders.

Are you speaking about Europe 1400 online (the browsergame) or Europe 1400 the real game? Because the ladder is just awesome

I might sound like a pessimist before I even seen the game, but I'm just very eager and excited for Kontor and course of that, I already started to imagine how I will play it. 

Kontor will be played differently than Guild 2, that's for sure. But you can't compare it to a browsergame before you even played it.

[bad karma]

I wont be able to abort a mission of murder course I see a guard suddenly appear, I wont be able to choose another route to another city with my carts to avoid a robbery, and I wont be able to just lurk outside the city and wait for someone random to come so I can murder him like Dexter in the famous Tv-show to gain some expirience. All I will be able to do is to click menus, just like in Europa 1400 and without the personal touch to the orders.

If they want to make it more realistic then this concept will be better. In TG2 you can manage everything yourself including your dynasty members but there's no sence. How do you make your thug turn back and start running away? Can your character control his mind?

I wish AI in Kontor will be based on NPC's intellectual skills. That means the more smart is your guy the more chanses are that he will accomplish his task etc. (they should be able to hide/run away from the guards themselves if needed). But I also wish that the main character will be able to take a part in every operation as well i.e. mobile.

Take a look guys.



This pic is from Gangsters: Organized crime. Random characters skills. This one has good Organization and Intelligence skills. He is also good at Intimidation. That means that he can either run his own crew (high INT + ORG skills) and he's good at extortion-related crimes. For example, if his INT was low then he could barely organize his team well, even though his ORG skill is high. Same with extortion. He will most likely intimidate most of his targets (set by the player), but if his INT was low then he might fail his task or get caught by the cops etc... Just an example of what would be great. (don't forget about my rep idea too )

[Sainty]

Ah, alright. I see things more clearly now! 

[FH]

@bad karma: thanks for bringing old memories up. Now I have to search for that game, it was awesome
Also thanks for the explanations. Gangsters: Organized Crime isn't exactly what I had in mind when I thought about that concept, but it comes very near to it.

@Sainty: If everything goes as planned you'll get the possibility to try the game a long time before it's finished. So if the system sucks (whatever system we choose in the end) we can respond to the feedback and change it.

[Kyren]

Nono, there's no (random) delay in the actual action, but the visualization may be some time later.
A few examples:
- You hire thiefs to break into a house. You will receive a message about their success/failure most likely at night, because that's when thiefs work. But the visualization is not at the same time. It's also somewhere at night, but it may be a bit later or even earlier.
- You hire someone to deliver something to finish an order. The order will be delivered immedeately and you'll get the message that the order is finished a few moments later.
But you may (or may not) see the cart later that day.

The idea is that the visual elements in the city represent the life in the city and the actions taken. When there are many deliveries you'll see a lot of carts, but to avoid traffic jams the game decides when to visualize these deliveries. I mean, there are so many carts, how would you know if one of them is yours? Same goes for thiefs, bandits and other characters.

Sorry for the confusion :/

Honestly, that sounds like a great idea to me Of course it cut's a bit, if you can't send your character around anywhere anymore, but this concept seems to greatly increase the performance - and I guess it will also allow you to mod it more easily (and thus, have more time for more important features), as you won't have to check and correct the possible ways of the characters anymore. It reminds me a bit of Fugger II

[Euly]

It sounds like a problem of finding the most effective means of applying personification. If Kontor will be unlike The Guild 2, then it will either have to be some groundbreaking new idea or be effective enough to not be pigeonholed with other games of a similar nature.
Unfortunately, there's only so many genres out there, and a lot of them tend to only work with specific combinations of how the player interacts with the game, which directly affects replayability. 
Personally, I enjoy having an identity in game like The Guild 2. I feel more associated to my character because of the character's needs and equal influence on other characters while moving around and carrying-out actions.
I also played Gangsters 1 and 2 (along with other classics like Cutthroats), and I loved those games for their sandbox-style gameplay, but the irony of Gangsters 2 was Eidos (or Hot House) decided to leave out the most important part of the game, the sandbox play. If Kontor leaves out the player's character and supplements the roles of the player and NPC's as deities (or non-existing in-game characters), then how can the game expect to be much different than a game such as Black & White?
B&W was a really good game, minus those stupid pets, but my point is that even those pets represented personifications which the game employed to give the player some sense of freedom and envelopment into the environment, rather than just a linear objective, such as in Gangsters 2.  If I remember correctly, Seadogs and Gothic captured my attention shortly after I lost interest in Gangsters 2, but then I found Tropico, which preserved the concept of personalities of people in-game. The Tropico series is probably a good model for Kontor to follow (minus the Caribbean theme) because the player does have a customizable character, but only for the purpose of enhancing the reaction of the population. However, I personally would like to see a game more like The Guild 2, just more streamlined. 
Without the element of identity in game, the framework itself will steer away from any RPG sense, leaving that same 'ole birds-eye-view strategy game, which is a bit dated.